Audio recording

[trevorbr]

Just to clarify, I did not suggest VHS was inferior to MD (minidisc.) Mini disk is a lossy format (similar to mp3) and therefore technically inferior to VHS and the CD/DAT standard. It was DAT/CD (wich are the same unless you record at 32 or 48khz to DAT) that I suggested were slightly better in most cases. Under normal listening conditions, the difference is neglegible.
As to the quality of high end analog, listen to some old Pink Floyd (or most anything else that is less than five or six years old) on a good system. You don't have to be in the studio to apreciate the end result of good analog recordings.

-trevor

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[Alex]

The issue of HI-FI VHS was addressed a few months ago on this forum...but I don't know how easy it would be to find the post.

Hi-Fi video record decks need a video input signal to lock to.

So, one solution is to bring a second hand but professional S-VHS or VHS camcorder complete with professional XLR inputs.

The advantages are numerous...most of the professional cameras have BOTH Stereo HI-FI AND redundant stereo linear tracks with dolby noise reduction...the linear tracks provide surprisingly good quality for a 43DB signal to noise ratio....(the HI-FI tracks are rated in the mid 80's to low 90's signal to noise ratio...although BetaCam SP linear audio, rated only in the mid 70's for signal to noise, in my opinion is equal to or better than VHS HI-FI.

You could also put the video camera in a wide shot and just let it run, perhaps turning it off if you are more than 5 minutes a way from getting a shot.....

...This is a great way to study how your day went, how efficient or unefficient you were throughout the day, even a way to prestudy your film dailies before you even get them back, and you've captured you audio with picture reference!

New, these cameras cost between $4,000 and $8,000.00 but now these cameras could be bought second hand for 20 cents on the dollar.

-Alex




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[This message has been edited by Alex (edited August 30, 2001).]

[technicolour]

Howdy Ya'll

Glad to hear there are people out there who like analouge! I was expecting a full on kicking from digital fans.

Not that im against digital at all, digital is cool its just a matter of what you prefer to listen too (and usually what you can afford!!! )

But anyway, what Matt said about editing on digital, it is indeed a lot easier.
The great thing is there is no quality loss from continious copying or editing, and editing is a lot easier, also the digital recordings are so good if you record in analouge and then say put it on cd you exactly the same sound just in a more versatile format.

To jambu - Im glad you share my enthusiasm for analouge recordings, they definatly are no way out classed by digital and sound nice

But again i say im not knocking digital at all, I dont really like MD however


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Jim

[Jambu]

Just wondering...

...is there a way you can force your Hi-Fi VHS VCR running at double speed when recording and then in playback so to achieve better quality in sound recording?

I really don't know if it's a stoopid question...

JAMBU

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[Matt Pacini]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Alex:
[B]
"Hi-Fi video record decks need a video input signal to lock to."


I've recorded hundreds of hours to VHS Hi-Fi without ever once sending a video signal, and had no problems whatsoever.

QUOTE FROM JAMBU
"Just wondering...
...is there a way you can force your Hi-Fi VHS VCR running at double speed when recording and then in playback so to achieve better quality in sound recording?"

(mATT pACINI RESPONDS): No, I don't think there's a way to do this, but it would be totally irrelevant anyway, because as I stated earlier, with Hi-FI, you are recording at video bandwidth, which is way, way beyond the human hearing range, and the rotating tape head is whirring at around 3500 inches per second. Professional 24 track studio machines, costing tens of thousands of dollars + run at 30 inches per second!
This would be like shooting film on a negative the size of a freakin wall!
The quality of VHS Hi-Fi is beyond what you can even hear.
It's not possible for anything to sound better than that.
Any statements by anyone that something else sounds better to them, are completely subjective, as in, they heard VHS Hi-Fi on a cheap playback system, and something else on a good playback system, or the recording on Hi-Fi was made under less than idea circuimstances, while the other was not, etc.
Keep in mind, that a cheap VCR is going to have cheap preamps & stuff, so that can affect the quality of the sound.

Matt Pacini

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[rollemfilm]

for those interested in the truth about mini disk, it is the best format for those struggling filmmakers with very small budgets. i don't recomend the small consumer models, but the professional ones built by HHB and Marantz. these recorders are not cheap. nor are they the most expensive. but by far, you'll save in tape stock and edit time, with the random access ability. plus you need not convert these machine as you do the cassette recorders. the marantz is less in price than the HHB, and less in price than most professional portable DAT machines. 1/4 inch tape is around $20.00 per reel. $8.00-$15.00 for DAT tape. $2.00 for a 74-140 min mini disk. and the quality is superb. if you like the price and ease of pro-cassette, you will love mini disk. well worth the investment.

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[Alex]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Courier, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Alex:

"Hi-Fi video record decks need a video input signal to lock to."

Alex
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I've recorded hundreds of hours to VHS Hi-Fi without ever once sending a video signal, and had no problems whatsoever.

Matt Pacini


Matt, nonetheless, VCR decks need a video input signal to resolve to...without the video signal, you are adding wow and flutter to your recordings and creating a potentially non-synchronous recording.

You may have avoided problems by using the exact same deck for playback, but I'm pretty sure if you are using an RS-422 based VHS machine it would not like a recording made without a video signal.

QUOTE FROM JAMBU
"Just wondering...
...is there a way you can force your Hi-Fi VHS VCR running at double speed when recording and then in playback so to achieve better quality in sound recording?"

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Courier, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Matt:
(MATT pACINI RESPONDS): No, I don't think there's a way to do this, but it would be totally irrelevant anyway, because as I stated earlier, with Hi-FI, you are recording at video bandwidth, which is way, way beyond the human hearing range, and the rotating tape head is whirring at around 3500 inches per second. Professional 24 track studio machines, costing tens of thousands of dollars + run at 30 inches per second!
This would be like shooting film on a negative the size of a freakin wall!
The quality of VHS Hi-Fi is beyond what you can even hear.
It's not possible for anything to sound better than that.
Any statements by anyone that something else sounds better to them, are completely subjective, as in, they heard VHS Hi-Fi on a cheap playback system, and something else on a good playback system, or the recording on Hi-Fi was made under less than idea circuimstances, while the other was not, etc.
Keep in mind, that a cheap VCR is going to have cheap preamps & stuff, so that can affect the quality of the sound.

Matt Pacini
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The head is whirring at 3500 inches per second?

That seems too fast, but it may not be relevant to the issue of quality in this instance...

What matters most is how many times the HI-FI record head is actually activated every second, I don't believe it's continuously on.

I don't know for sure, but it seems like 30 times a second is the logical choice for the amount of times the HI-FI head lays down an audio signal,

....so even though I think the inches per second you have calculated is too fast by a factor of 5 or 10...it may in fact not be as relevant to the quality issue as the amount of times a HI-FI recording signal is laid down every second.

Nonetheless, HI-FI is very good sound, but it is not as strong at picking up dialogue as it is with music and singing.

I have had a few situations when people are just speaking plainly and I can hear humming or buzzing that is not related to line noise, but rather to mike-placement versus loudness of the individual talking...

Whenever it's happened to me, I've never quite figured out what the cause was...even after I had new video heads and a very good head alignment to my S-VHS Edit Playback Deck, Every now and then, I'll pick up a little bit of buzzing over some dialogue situations, it doesn't happen often, but just enough to be wary of it.

HI-FI sound is considered slightly "darker" than Dat or CD Recordings.

And the DB signal to noise of HI-FI is in the mid 80's to low 90's, a very good signal to noise ratio but not out of this world quality either.

-Alex








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[This message has been edited by Alex (edited August 31, 2001).]

[trevorbr]

I've watched the tranport of a video deck....I could be wrong, but it didn't look anywhere near 3500 inches per second (that is 291.6666- feet per second.) The audio portion of the signal is only a piece of the the overall bandwidth, the video signal takes the lions share. If the full bandwidth was available, then yes it would be way beyond what the human ear could hear. I beleive the standard for VHS audio is less than that of the CD standard in comparison.
ADAT decks use the bandwidth that can fit onto S-VHS tapes to record 8 tracks of CD (or better) quality audio, but this is a dedicated audio machine that has nothing to do with video. If VHS was that much better than DAT at recording audio, DAT wouldn't have survived.


-trevor


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[Alex]

I vaguely remember CD audio as being rated around 103-105 DB signal to noise ratio...

and HI-FI is in the mid 80's to low 90's...

...HI-FI is very good, but not quite as good as good as CD....However, it probably is easier to record to VHS HI-FI, (and probably cheaper)

But I think BetaCam SP linear Audio, which is rated in the mid 70's DB for signal to noise, is every bit as good as VHS HI-FI.

I think the Dolby noise reduction which is used by the BetaCam SP format, (but not incorporated on VHS HI-FI), and the fact that linear is recorded continuously, allows for a lower signal to noise ratio on linear to sound as good as a slightly higher signal to noise ratio that you find on VHs HI-FI.

By the way, even if the VHS HI-FI audio is only recording 30 times per second, I don't know how much data is gathered each time around, the video and HI-FI signal is recorded at an angle to increase the amount of information one can record onto the video per revolution....but definitely, VHS HI-FI is sharing tape with the picture signal.

-Alex





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[This message has been edited by Alex (edited September 01, 2001).]

[trevorbr]

Not trying to be a wise guy CD audio (16-bit) has a dynamic range of 96dB, so the signal to noise ratio would have to be less.


-trevor

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